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Daniel Emmerson 00:02

Welcome to Foundational Impact, a podcast series that focuses on education and artificial intelligence from a non-profit perspective. My name is Daniel Emerson and I'm the Executive Director of Good Future Foundation, a non-profit whose mission is to equip educators to confidently prepare all students, regardless of their background, to benefit from and succeed in an AI infused world. This podcast series sets out to explore the trials and tribulations of building a non-profit from the ground up, while also investigating the changing world of technology in life, learning and work.

Julie Carson is a forward thinking educational leader with a steadfast commitment to inclusion and innovation. As the Director of Education at Woodland Academy Trust, she has been at the forefront of integrating artificial intelligence and universal design for learning into creating inclusive technology enhanced learning environments for her students. Her groundbreaking work has led to one of the Trust's schools being recognized as an Apple Distinguished School and the Trust itself being designated as an Apple Regional Training Center for Kent and Bexley. With over 18 years of leadership experience, including 11 years as a head teacher in Salford, Julie has spearheaded multi school collaborations and curriculum development initiatives aimed at improving educational outcomes across different settings. Her expertise extends beyond her immediate environment as she regularly shares her insights on AI integration, UDL and digital transformation through podcasts, conferences and panel discussions. Julie's leadership is characterized by her dedication to continuous learning and collaboration. She holds a distinction in her MA in Educational Leadership and Improvement and has completed the National Professional Qualification for Executive Leadership. Her partnerships with organizations like Apple and LGFL underscore her belief in the transformative power of technology to support both staff and student development.

Today we're exploring Julie's journey and insights into how artificial intelligence and UDL can reshape education, fostering environments where innovation and inclusion go hand in hand. You're joining us partway through a conversation about some of Julie's work when it comes to collaborating with people outside of her immediate school environment. I'm asking her about some of the things that she's been doing recently.

Daniel Emmerson 02:37

But I know you're. You do outreach and you do a lot of external events and you're part of podcasts and various other things as well. Have you done anything recently?

Julie Carson 02:46

No. I've got some things coming up though. So I've got the London Grid for Learning conference in November, which is around Universal Design for Learning and then also AI. Actually, we're at the Universal Design for Learning conference in Dublin and we're presenting there. And then I'm doing something in January for secondary ed, which is about the research piece that we did with Rose Luckin and Dr. Fiona Aubrey Smith. So it's doing a session on presenting that.

Daniel Emmerson 03:15

Fantastic. What's the event in Dublin?

Julie Carson 03:16

So it was the International Symposium on Universal Design for Learning. So it was about how we used our one to one devices and AI to support the Universal Design for Learning pedagogical approach.

Daniel Emmerson 03:29

Okay. And I guess from the school's perspective, that's interesting, right, for you to be embarking on these different initiatives and bringing so much back to the Trust. How does that work as a process?

Julie Carson 03:42

So the role in my job is to find the nuggets which we think will work. So. And we've got a constant cycle of evaluation. So, I think as a leader, it's very easy to get excited about the next best thing, about what's happening next, but it's always stopping and thinking about what is that impact going to have in our setting? Is it going to have an impact? And if so, is it for all children? Is it a particular group of children, a particular group of staff? And then being able to put a communication plan and change management plan around that, rather than just going, here we go, here's the next thing we're going to do. Off you go, see you later.

Daniel Emmerson 04:22

Right. And it'd be good to know, I suppose, at the outset a little bit more about that environment that you're, you're bringing these nuggets back to. Can you tell us a bit about the Trust and the schools and what day to day life looks like there.

Julie Carson 04:35

Certainly day to day life is just amazing. So we have five primary schools, we've got four in Bexley, one in Kent, ranging from, you know, much older buildings to a brand new free school which we just opened over a year ago. So that's only got two year groups in reception and year one. The school in Kent, we've got extra classes because of the numbers that are increasing in Kent, so we've suddenly gone from two form entry to three form entry in some of them. One of our schools is an Apple Distinguished school and we're a regional training center for Apple and all of our schools are one to one with iPad as well. Really digital technology and ped tech is at the forefront of everything that we do and we're really innovative and creative. So, you know, staff take risks, they have a go, they explore. We do lots of sharing practice. For instance, I've just done an AI newsletter with the help of AI, which has been collated from staff. So we use a really good tool called Vocean, which does all kinds of things, including co-creation. So I went out to the staff with Vocean, and said, what are you using? What's the impact of it? What do you want to say to other staff? What do you want to avoid? And then I've created that into a newsletter which is just being shared with staff this week, to say, look, these are the sorts of things that are going across the Trust because we really want to capture what's going well as well as understand what's not going well. So we're not wasting time on those aspects.

Daniel Emmerson 06:01

Okay, I guess. Well, there's so much out there, isn't there? It's quite a gigantic topic for busy teachers to try and grapple with. So being able to take those nuggets, I guess, and bring them into your environment is going to be incredibly helpful to those staff.

Julie Carson 06:16

Yes. And I think that's where the strategy comes in. So we've got a really clear AI strategy which is around three challenges. So that means that all of the AI that we're trialling and that we're looking at using and that we've actually got in place at the moment are linked to those three challenges. And we'll review that at the end of the year to say, are these still our challenges? Is this still what we're looking at? Or do we need to tweak those challenges? Because AI and our schools have moved on so much.

Daniel Emmerson 06:41

Okay. Are you already finding a shift? Is it. Is the technology moving faster than anticipated or in different ways?

Julie Carson 06:48

I think different ways. So there's certainly wins, there's been massive wins with support staff around the use of technology and also from the trust point of view because, you know, I look at operations as well as teaching and learning, it's the operation side which is really shifting as well with the use of AI. So just those operational efficiencies. And I think what's great is staff are coming to me, teaching staff about, we've tried this and this is the writing outcome. So someone sent me an email with some writing outcomes attached to say we used Mizou in the classroom and look at this writing from these particular children who would not have been able to achieve that before. And just those conversations are so powerful because then I can then share it as I'm going around school saying, actually you need to go and talk to this teacher because they've trialled this and it's worked really well. And I think because we're a small trust, those personalised conversations are much easier to have.

Daniel Emmerson 07:44

It is a small trust. Right. With five schools and you mentioned one is an ADS, so an Apple Distinguished School. So that gives an impression, I suppose, that technology is at the forefront of day to day work and thinking about teaching and learning. Is that a fair assessment or is that still a challenge?

Julie Carson 08:03

No, that's an absolutely fair assessment. So all of our schools use it and use it well. Obviously they're all at slightly different stages in their journey depending on the kind of staff stability and also the resources within the local community. But our aim is for all of our schools to be Apple Distinguished Schools within the next couple of years. That's, that's what we would, that's what we would love to achieve.

Daniel Emmerson 08:25

That's massive.

Julie Carson 08:26

It is massive. It is massive. But you know, it's things. So we've been working on the curriculum and then one of the deputy heads for curriculum today has sent me, well, she sent all the deputies a free form that she set up with a mood board around artists and the lesson plans relating to that. And it's just that warming moment where you think that's great actually because everyone can dip in, they can have a look, you don't have to get together to have the conversation, but you're just using that level of expertise. So yeah, absolutely. For all of our conversations, heads’ meetings, everything we've got, you know, we've started using GoodNotes as well.

Daniel Emmerson 09:01

Okay.

Julie Carson 09:02

And we've been using that to kind of capture key points and then share that. So that's how we're using it at the moment because we've just started playing around with that as staff rather than pupils.

Daniel Emmerson 09:13

Okay. And I'm focusing a little on the ADS side of things as well because we're working a lot with schools, particularly around artificial intelligence tools. What to look out for, what does best practice look like at the moment? And that is a changing and evolving conversation. But with becoming an Apple Distinguished School, there's a huge process involved with that. That involves full community buy-in as well as, yeah, the implementation of technology and different tools with such a gigantic undertaking is that, you know, looking to get your other four schools as ADS in the next four years. How do you approach that and what are those initial conversations with staff look like? Julie?

Julie Carson 09:57

So with staff it's been very much about the why. So it's always starting with the why. Why are we doing this? Why have we gone down this particular route, not just of EdTech but also of iPad? Why are we going down the route of using AI? So it's making sure there's that really clear understanding. Because once staff understand why and then start to see all the benefits to that, so lots of it is around over communication, clear vision, you know, sharing every single little win that we have. And I think one of the things that we did as a trust very early doors was we appointed an assistant head who was our digital lead. So he enabled staff. His role was coaching. So he worked with staff to support them with their planning, with their implementation of the vision in the classrooms. And we've actually got six Apple coaches across the trust now as well. So their role is supporting in each of their schools to be able to carry on with this, with this journey. But I think it's very much about that. What are the benefits in it for the pupils and for them and for that wider community? And we had a visit from someone in Apple a couple of weeks ago and we were talking about coding and we were saying about the fact that some of our girls in particular are now saying, actually we want to pursue a career in coding.

Daniel Emmerson 11:14

Amazing.

Julie Carson 11:15

And that, you know, six, even six months ago, would not have been in their mindset or vocabulary at all. So again, that's another point where you think actually this is the reason we're doing it.

Daniel Emmerson 11:26

And when looking at, or moving on to, I should say, artificial intelligence and the impact that some of these tools are having. Let's start maybe with the classroom, because you mentioned the operational side as well, and maybe we can look at that but are you finding positive and tangible outcomes already emerging from the use of AI technology in any way? And what does that look like?

Julie Carson 11:50

Yes, so there's quite a lot actually. So we've got personalised learning, so that's around the AI is enabling a more tailored learning experience for children, so adjusting the pace and content to meet their needs. So we've got a reading adaptive learning platform which identifies gaps in knowledge and it offers targeted interventions so no children are left behind. But it's also challenging those children who are excelled, which sometimes, you know, those children have forgotten about in some classrooms just because there's such a wide expanse. I think the other aspect for us particularly is around those data driven insights. So AI systems can analyse vast amounts of data really quickly and provide insights into student performance and engagement. So then that enables teachers to make informed decisions. And then what the data driven platforms can do is then support teachers with planning next steps either for individual children or if there's a class wide for whole class feedback, if there's something they need to work on as a whole class. One of the platforms we use will record what the children are actually working out in maths. So and then it will analyse that and then it will pull out misconceptions. And the power of doing that is that the teacher can see at the point of the misconception where the misconception is. Whereas if you're just walking around the classroom marking work, you're then relying on the, on the pupil to be able to say, yes, this, this is my thought process. And sometimes the child is not able to do that for many barriers that they might have or just because they've worked it through and you know, have forgotten how they've done it because they've moved on to the next one. So being able to actually pinpoint where that misconception is means that you can deal with that gap in their knowledge really quickly without that gap actually being and the misconception being reinforced. I think the other aspect for us as well is around teacher support. So being able to tailor creative ideas and kind of the resources for the children and also things such as removal of barriers. So real time translation. So we've got a child in one of our schools who has EAL, has only just come into the country, is in year six and they couldn't access anything. So the teacher has used an AI tool to translate. I think they're speaking Mandarin actually. So it translates Mandarin at that exact point of her delivery. So this child is engaged in the lessons and is doing really really well. So it's looking at those different ways. And I think also, AI, it really made me think about do our schools need to look like they do now? So I'm coming from the point of view of we're always going to need teachers, we're always going to need that human element to do the explicit direction and then be able to support the pupils and know the pupils really well. But for those children who can't get into school or because they're ill or have emotional based school avoidance, why do they need to come in? Why can we not use AI and digital devices to be able to support them learning wherever they are? Thinking about those communities who, you know, there's only one or two children in their particular area, so you know, tiny islands or particular communities. And I'm thinking globally, not just here now, then, you know, some of the AI tools can be offline so they can still get those personalised experiences without having to come into school every single day.

Daniel Emmerson 15:21

And when you're looking at those particular outputs in the classroom, just take a step back, sorry. And think about the number of different options that are available to you. When it comes to finding an AI tool that can do this, or finding an AI tool that can help me improve this. There's so much already that's apparently been built around solving different solutions. There seems to be a business in every area, not just of education, but also of business, where AI is bolted on or added in. How do you navigate that space and particularly when thinking about that from a compliance and indeed a quality point of view.

Julie Carson 16:03

Yes. So the first piece I will do is do some research myself. So I'll have a look to see what the company is like, what their ethics are without diving into kind of the safeguarding and the data aspect, but making sure that their visions and values fit our trust’s vision and values. I will then have a look at any case studies around impact and look at the schools or education settings where the impact has been. So, you know, we're high disadvantage, high SEND, high ESL, so it's got to have had an impact in schools like that. I will then meet with the company, we will then do a demo with the head teachers and myself to have a look at it and then we'll run a pilot because actually it might look great to me, but in the classroom on a day to day basis because I'm not in the classroom, it might be used very differently in the way that I thought it might be in my head. So we'll kind of put out to staff who would like to volunteer for this? We'll have staff come forward, we'll run a pilot for six weeks, we'll collect data from the pilot and then the heads and I will discuss that as to what the next steps are, as to whether it's worked or whether it's not not worked, and do we want to go forward with it? And I think the other aspect of that is constantly reviewing. So even when we've said, yes, we're using this and we might have used it for a year, we might have used it for two years or longer, but is it still fit for purpose? Is it still the tool that we want it to use? So we're currently reviewing one of our tools at the moment because it doesn't do what we want it to do. And actually it's really behind with the AI side in particular, and we know it's going to be a massive job to change it, but that's not the reason to stay with it, just because it's hard work to do it.

Daniel Emmerson 19:00

Sure, I guess so many teachers and senior leaders find that a daunting task, especially if, you know, you're looking at that for the first time. Where did that enthusiasm to, you know, launch yourself into this space come from, Julie? Is that a journey as you expected it would be?

Julie Carson 18:02

No. Not at all.

Daniel Emmerson 18:04

Can you tell us a bit about that?

Julie Carson 18:06

Yeah. So my journey is completely school improvement. You know, it was before I had this role. I was a head for, I think, 16 years, you know, 12, 13 of which were in Salford in the northwest and then relocated to Kent. And it's always been about that traditional school improvement model going in and coaching and giving support. And then something just clicked with me. So I think it was an Apple advert that I saw at the time called Homework, because I knew, I knew something wasn't right. You know, when you just keep, keep doing the same thing and you get the same results, well, that doesn't work, does it? That's the most dangerous thing to do. Doing the same thing and expecting different results. So, and there was this “Homework” advert, which was a group of children, I'd say maybe year six, maybe year seven, who were researching homework for gravity. And I sat there and my brain just went, this is brilliant. Because normally what do we do as teachers? We might give worksheets out or we might ask them, you know, to write something about gravity. But this was all through the use of iPad. So go and research gravity and do a presentation. So they were videoing, they were annotating and they created a keynote from it and just thought, that is what I want for my children, that experience to be able to say actually putting in a worksheet is really boring. And it's not right for staff either. You know, it's so time consuming. It's not showing what I'm really good at. Is me being able to write an essay on Henry VIII showing my history skills or is it showing my writing skills? You know, so it's looking at different ways. And that's when we also came across the Universal Design for Learning. So it's that pedagogical approach where it's different means of representation, for example. So it's not all just done in one way and then built on that with the work that we'd done with the EdTech was my interest in AI. When I saw some of the capabilities of what it could do, my family actually found it hilarious. So my dad is from a computing background. My husband is IT. He laughs at me because he says I break the hoover every time I turn it on. And he was. When I said, oh, this is what I'm leading now, he was like, well, I, you know, I send out lots of luck to the trust for you leading digital. But actually I found it's an absolute passion because I can see the difference that it's making and that's the key for me. It's the difference that it's making on a daily basis to our children and our staff in a positive way and then being able to share that to help others and then learn from others and then problem solve around that as well.

Daniel Emmerson 20:34

That's incredible. A real testament to the power of advertising, I guess with the Apple piece there. Gosh. Well, we've looked a little bit, Julie, at the classroom and you mentioned the operational side of things as well. And a lot of folks speak about how AI can be used for productivity and time saving. It's something that we focus on as well as part of our professional development for teachers. How is AI in particular changing workflows and productivity across the operational side of the trust?

Julie Carson 21:09

Yes. So we've been trying lots of different things. So we've been using it for creating newsletters, for also data analysis. So things such as reporting to trustees, I've used AI to analyse data for me to pull out kind of key strengths, compare data for the last three years, which I'd normally have to do by hand or in a spreadsheet. So I've just uploaded all the data and it's done that for me. Things such as the gender pay gap. We're using it for HR functions. So, you know, creating job adverts, creating job packs. And we've also been doing some experimentation around shortlisting.

Daniel Emmerson 21:50

Okay.

Julie Carson 21:50

And we've just now created a guide for staff for kind of our keep. Well, it's our leaders around the sorts of prompts to be used so that we're all using the same prompts, we're all using the same tool, no matter who we're short testing and then what that looks like. We're doing some training on that at the moment, but that has saved a significant amount of time. But we've also still gone in and just tested it by hand because we wanted to make sure that actually it is accurate, which is where the prompting comes in as well, and making sure the prompts are exactly right. And then things such as safer recruitment, so checking for gaps in employment and that can take a lot of time. So we just upload the expectations for the safer recruitment guidelines and relate it to Kixie 2024 and it will analyse that for us and give us a complete breakdown, including looking for key phrases which might concern us if somebody's put those in an application form. So that that's a real game changer for us. And I think also operationally, staff have used it for supporting with creation of PowerPoint presentations and then just simple things like emails. You know, sometimes you have to send an email and you're not really sure where to start, so it will support with that. And it's also provided structure for some of the information that we're sending out. We've used it for school improvement planning. Again, it still needs that human hand in it. But a really good example that we've just done recently, we had a trustee day where we were looking at strategy for the next three years. Everything was captured on flip charts. And then what I did was I took photos of the flip charts, uploaded it to chat, asked it to analyse what the key themes were and what the key challenges were. It provided that for me and then suggested actions around that as well, which we've then used to develop our strategy in detail. But that task of having to go through all the flip charts and then having to kind of combine. Right, hang on, how many people have said this is a particular issue? It's just sped up that process completely.

Daniel Emmerson 23:52

And you focused on this quite a bit because even at the start of the academic year, in terms of communicating that positive messaging and focusing around best practice in both classroom and operational contexts, you held an event, a pretty substantial event. At the beginning of September. Can you talk to us about that, Julie? Where the idea came from, what you did, and how some of those. Those experiments and some of that practice played a part in leading up to it.

Julie Carson 24:25

Yes. So this is an insight to how my brain works, Daniel. So I was on the train to BETT one morning and I suddenly thought, I really want to put on an AI conference. So I think if I just take a step back, we have an EdTech or PedTech inset day every single year. So that's where we kind of like to develop this is what we were working on this year. This is sharing practice around it. And because we'd been having different conversations and been trialling Magma Math, I thought, actually, we need to formalise this now. So, yes. So I decided on the train going to BETT that this is what I wanted to do. By the end of that day, I'd booked several speakers and kind of formulated the plan in my brain. And what I wanted very much in the morning was for it to be around keynote speakers. So understanding where does AI fit, because there's been so much negativity around it. And yes, there are absolutely challenges with AI, especially in education setting, but I wanted everyone to hear about the fact that actually it can be a force for good used in the right way. So the morning, you know, linked to research, linked to people who are using it. So that's what I wanted for the scene setting. And then what I wanted in the afternoon was for it to be really practical. So we had 12 different workshops ranging from using AI in EFIs, to AI for support staff, to HR to DPIA, to leadership of AI. And then I thought, actually, this is going to be so good. I don't want it just for our trust. I want to offer it out to anyone who would like to come along. So that's why we turned it into a conference with selling tickets. And then we had some great sponsors, including yourself and Goodnotes. So thank you for that. But that also meant that it connected people. And that was the key for me as well. It wasn't just, you know, these are the practical aspects, it's that connection. And I think because the hunger was there from the staff, and that was clear from when we kind of been doing the talking in the spring term and the summer term around AI, that was the feeder for me to say, this is definitely the right way to go. And I think what's come from that now a lot of those tools are being trialled in classrooms. People are, you know, having a go at using them. And we're just in the process of formalising, we're doing a formal research project into lesson planning. So I've got a working party across our trust who are working with an external expert to look at different models of lesson planning. Which ones are going to be the best ones for us to use, creating mega prompts which we can then share out across the trust and wider because we want to get it right. And I think there's so much negativity around out there as well about, you know, you can't lesson plan using AI because that's deprofessionalizing us, but actually, no, it's helping us. And we still need that human element. We're the ones who know our children best. You know, we're the ones who will make sure that it's fit for purpose. But it's giving us thoughts, ideas and suggestions we might not have thought of already because it can tap into education globally, not just what we know within our trust.

Daniel Emmerson 27:35

And from that, I mean, in terms of your learning and your experience so far, what might you say to a senior leader at a school who's just setting out on this journey and just thinking about where to begin?

Julie Carson 27:48

So, yes, I think my advice would be very clear on what it is you want AI to solve. So at the beginning, I said about our strategy and we've got three problems. One of them is around personalised learning. How do we personalise learning for the advantage of all our pupils? So pick your challenge and work to that. It doesn't even need to be in a strategy if you're not sure about that. But pick that one problem that you want it to solve and stick with that. Don't try and do too much at once, because the minute you try and do too much at once, it gets watered down. You lose track. You can't decide where the impact is. You'll also get change fatigue from staff. You will not be able to embed anything. And if you're thinking about the CPD and the particular amount of professional development that needs to be done to introduce these new tools, if you're introducing too many at once, then nobody's going to be able to keep up. So my advice would be very clear. Know your organisation, know that, know one challenge, and look to work to supporting that.

Daniel Emmerson 28:51

Excellent stuff, Julie, thank you so, so very much for sharing these insights with us. It's phenomenal being able to speak with you. You're such an inspiring person and a real pioneer in this space. So we're very, very grateful to have you. Thank you for being part of Foundational Impact. I'm sure we'll, we'll find time to catch up again very soon.

Julie Carson 29:10

Thank you for inviting me.

Voice Over 29:11

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