Transcription

Daniel Emmerson 00:02

Welcome to Foundational Impact, a podcast series that focuses on education and artificial intelligence from a non profit perspective. My name is Daniel Emmerson and I'm the Executive Director of Good Future Foundation, a non-profit whose mission is to equip educators to confidently prepare all students, regardless of their background, to benefit from and succeed in an AI infused world. This podcast series sets out to explore the trials and tribulations of building a non-profit from the ground up, while also investigating the changing world of technology in life, learning and work.

Esen Tümer is a technology and education leader with over 23 years of experience in global tech companies. Esen holds an MBA from UCLA and certification in Six Sigma AI and Machine Learning from Harvard University. As the founder and CEO of Essential Evolutions in Artificial Intelligence and InfinTech in Bio-Science, Esen is at the forefront of integrating AI into education and healthcare. She's also the founder of the Artificial Intelligence and Technology Association in Turkey, affiliated with the Global Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence Society, working to bridge the gap between emerging technologies and their practical applications in schools, hospitals and beyond.

Esen, thank you so much once again for being on Foundational Impact today. It's wonderful to have you with us. I'm particularly excited to have you here because you have such a remarkable career spanning so many different sectors. In this podcast series we've been exploring artificial intelligence technology from the perspective of education, of course, with the view to the working lives of people that are currently in K-12 education. And because your career is spanned business administration as well as technology and healthcare, I imagine you have a very diverse background and perspective on what artificial intelligence technologies might be able to do and how they might impact education in the future. So I was wondering if maybe we could start with that. Could you tell us a bit about your background and how it relates to AI and where AI fits in specifically?

Esen Tümer 02:31

Thanks Daniel. First of all, thank you very much for inviting me for an amazing podcast. I highly appreciate what you are doing as a foundation, especially for education and K-12 for the people, for students, for teachers, for the senior leaders is highly appreciated. For my background, indeed I'm a teacher as well. I have studied linguistics at the university. I have so much passion about being a teacher, to be an academician, especially in the area of technology as well. Also for the semantics and also for the syntax which is indeed the basis of the AI. Right now we are learning with cognitive learning. It was the fundamentals. By the time I got a degree from Harvard University later on AI impact on our lives. And I had a study for the UCLA from California on MBA. I became a kind of business leader in technology and healthcare domain. But education was my passion forever. Still I'm so passionate. That's why I would love to contribute to you as much as I can. So my background, I was a CEO of Philips HealthCare Medtronic. Right now I'm a VP, vice president of a hospital chain where we are having a university, also we are having schools. That's why I love to have this connection with education as well.

Daniel Emmerson 03:59

What was it that drew you to studying and learning more about artificial intelligence to begin with? What pulled you in?

Esen Tümer 04:09

Good question. I was the CEO of Philips Healthcare. I was in a meeting and there was the, in the kind of symposium. They were mentioning in the meeting it felt like, you know, five, six years ago, and they said there will be no more general positions. Whatever you do, be so unique and specific. And I said, wow, these guys are something interesting. I was a queen of a multinational organization managing $3 billion with 6,000 people. I said whenever you are, wherever you are at the top level, you should learn something new. At that moment I realised whatever I can do by myself, the machines, the AI robots might replace you very easily. I thought as a hobby, it was a hobby initially and I said let me study AI to understand what is the future, what can I do?

Daniel Emmerson 05:04

Okay.

Esen Tümer 05:05

And it was interesting. The lesson I took was the business, not only business, AI impact on your life. I'm gonna link this to education as well. But I mean, I think with a kind of self awareness how we are evolving, what is life bringing us, what we can do in the future utilising technology.

Daniel Emmerson 05:28

And while you were studying or while you were learning about this, are you able to see parallels with what's happening in the mainstream as far as, for example ChatGPT and Gemini and Perplexity and what these other tools are, are able to achieve. Is that how you envisaged artificial intelligence impacting our lives? Or was there something more than that?

Esen Tümer 05:55

Indeed, it was a very interesting statement from our professor at Harvard University. The professor said that whenever you are going to be asking your grandmother if she understands your occupation, your job, sorry for you, which means if you are an engineer, she would understand. If you are a doctor, she would understand. But if you're a medical engineer today, it's a very different position, for example, they wouldn't understand. Why? Jobs are having an evolving impact in our lives. For example, you might be 40, 50 years old, a senior leader, a school teacher or professor, academician, or a very strong one. Whatever you have done in the last 25 years, if you are going to repeat the same thing, same cycle, same pattern, you are not going to be successful in the future. Which means jobs are dramatically evolving in a way that we should be so careful what we are doing and planning. And that's why the majority of the jobs will be merged and then they are going to be replaced by AI, sometimes by robots. That's why we have to be quite careful about that one.

Daniel Emmerson 07:16

So when we're thinking about the pace of change or the rate of change with some of this technology and the tools that I referenced, there are primarily generative AI tools, of course, but thinking about artificial intelligence more broadly, it's evolving so, so quickly. But the education system is very very slow typically to catch up with this. So a lot of what we're finding with our research and our work with students is that there's an anxiety around this, right, that they can see the change happening because they are on the front line, particularly teenagers, but the education system itself isn't enabling them to be equipped to deal with the rate of change, particularly when it comes to the world of work. Is there anything you think that teachers might be able to do or educators might be able to do to change their practices and bring in new ideas, particularly when it comes to careers and opportunities in the future?

Esen Tümer 08:19

Certainly, yes, I agree. And what you are doing, like as a foundation, I have done the same thing for the AI Association in Turkey, based in Istanbul, affiliated with AAAI in the USA. The first of all, the mission should be awareness. And you are not going to be, either as a teacher or as a student, you will never be able to catch up with everything. You cannot be in control of everything at all. First of all, what you should do. Technology, you shouldn't be scared of technology. First, awareness, which means if a tsunami is coming to you, instead of ignoring the tsunami is coming to you, be aware the technology is coming, tsunami is coming. Learn how you are going to be able to enjoy and surf over the waves. We should be using technology as a tool, understanding the benefits. What does it mean? Teachers or senior leaders shouldn't be learning or understanding how the code is written. They don't have to be a kind of technology freak to understand A to Z. Not at all. They should be only understanding what is the impact of technology and how the teachers, leaders, school owners, school people, the top management people also to understand they are going to be utilising technology. And for the students, they should be showing what are the ways to adapt technology, to understand technology. What is the meaning of technology in our lives? Embedded that we are going to be getting the support of technology. And of course, very important element. People are scared. Let's say for the. There is a business course Ethics for AI which means what is the intention of AI being used? I give an example. Atom is a kind of element. You can use this one whenever you get thyroid cancer. Atom is healing you. But the same atom, the same element, when you are using it in the Hiroshima nuclear bomb, then you are killing people. Same element might kill you or heal you. That's why technology is the same. And school teachers who are listening to us, they should be having the awareness what is the meaning of technology. And by the way, we are teaching the machines, AI about our decisions, our choices. And we are teaching them. We are responsible not to learn what AI does for the future. Indeed today we are responsible as a whole society. How we are training the AI for our choices. It's a copy. Right now there is no consciousness in AI. It is only a kind of virtual mind copying from you about your decisions. Another example, for example, I can give for the teachers to understand. In North America there are some studies. They say two candidates, white men and black women, same background. For example, asking AI, what is the selection for the same specific role, identical background about education. AI chooses white Americans, for example, men. Why? It is not AI that is choosing. How you made the choice is history, the whole history. AI is learning from our choices done for ages, for many, many years. That's why whenever we are going to be teaching the systems or showing the students how they are going to be making their conscious choices. It's so important, the ethics are so important for us. Not to kill, but to heal people and to choose the right thing for the people and responsible for education, for teachers, for the school teachers, for senior leaders. First of all, awareness, understanding how technology evolves and for K-12 is so important, especially for the first five grades at the schools. They should be understanding now they are focusing on writing codes beyond. They should be teaching the kids, not only for technology, how they are using technology for their benefits in the future in a good way. That's why creating awareness is the fundamental thing, I think in education right now, in K-12.

Daniel Emmerson 13:09

And that awareness, I guess, Esen, doesn't just mean awareness of the technology and what it can do, but also, as you alluded to there things like data privacy. Responsible.

Esen Tümer 13:20

Yes.

Daniel Emmerson 13:20

Ethical practice.

Esen Tümer 13:21

Exactly. It covers all. Yes, yeah, exactly.

Daniel Emmerson 13:24

These are also things that you're encouraging teachers and students to be mindful of, right?

Esen Tümer 13:30

Yes, exactly. Because today, whenever most people are telling us and we have nothing to do with the AR or anything. No, if you have only a smartphone in your hand, you are well connected, you are wired and your brain is already hacked. This one you are thinking very simple, likes very simple, browsing in your cursor and then you are going to be giving all data about yourself. It looks very simple, very innocent but historically after 20 years later you will just see all your choices are going to come back to you as a boomerang. All advertisements are coming to you that way even as you know that one pretty well, I mean as an AI foundation that you are doing at the moment, Daniel.

Daniel Emmerson 14:14

I imagine that there's quite a lot of implications there for the healthcare sector as well and I know this is a huge area of your work and your responsibility. Esen, is there any parallel that we might be able to draw when it comes to learning about best practice from healthcare to education?

Esen Tümer 14:32

Yes, I think, I mean since I'm a VP of a group we have got K12 schools from kindergarten after university and we have got hospitals as well and we have investments in the UK. I'm in London by tomorrow and we acquired a hospital in Winchester also where we are embedding AI. But whatever you do, it might be healthcare, it might be finance, supply chain, human resources. Fundamentally the basis is education. That's why what you are doing as K-12 part education is so important and the healthcare part you should be teaching the surgeons, doctors, consultants in a way how they are using technology. And today for the after K-12 when a kid is going to go to a university they are going to be learning with the VR glasses, virtual reality, augmented reality in a metaverse which means they are going to create their own avatars and in the operating theater when they are going to be performing surgery they will see the hologram of the organ, let's say the heart, kidney, spleen, lungs or the uterus. They are going to be seeing three dimensional and able to see and monitor. Today it's possible there's robotic surgery where the surgeon is sitting in London, patient might be in Chicago and the doctor or the nurse and the system. Everybody will be in different countries, other continents, they're all connected. Another example, for example they never, let's say Daniel is going to have a heart attack and your smart watch is going to get the signals algorithm to letting your ambulance to come. Daniel  is going to have a heart attack in five minutes. Be ready and the same watch is going to be sending signals to your hospital operating theater. Be ready. CAT lab, be ready. The patient is on the way. Daniel's doctor cardiologist is going to be warned that you are going to be on the way. It's called IoT, internal things. They're all connected. So AI is only one layer, IoT, cybersecurity, AR, VR, metaverse, all these kinds of different layers are going to be compact. They are going to be in our lives. In the very near future. Metaverse is going to be in our life, like internet today is very common. You don't question for the need for the internet. In the past, 100 years ago, electricity was a major challenge. Now it is very common. Internet is the same and Metaverse will be the same for us. With your contact lenses, you are going to click the Google in your eyes. No need for smart wearables, no need for the computers, iPads or iWatches at all. We are going to all connect to virtual reality directly as a hybrid model, as a human organism, and also for virtual reality.

Daniel Emmerson 17:47

I'm wondering in that scenario, Esen, that you mentioned, with the surgeon in Chicago, for example, and the patient in Sao Paulo or who knows where, why would it be necessary? Or maybe the necessity will change. But it's important to still have people, right? Professionals who are involved in these processes. And this, in this case, a remote surgery, right? So a very high stakes decision making procedure. It's still important to have people involved in this, right?

Esen Tümer 18:18

It is the good way that you are thinking as a human. You want to feel that there is always a need for human humanity. For sure, 100%, yes. But why? Robotic surgery was popular for the astronauts to go to NASA. Wherever you are going to be as an astronaut in the space, you have no surgical background and you have no doctor in place for them to have the remote operations. It started with NASA needs in the past. Today it's possible, it's done. I mean, majority of hospitals in the world, they are doing robotic surgery. Second element, we are having in the society, aging population, chronic diseases, and we will be living longer, where we will have lack of resources, which means lack of nurses, limited doctors, and we will have a higher population. That's why whenever you need the pandemic, COVID 19 has shown us, even you are stuck in a hospital or in your home and you don't have the services. With this kind of remote services, digital doctor, digital surgeon, it is going to be possible the surgeon is not able to come to travel to your place in London or in Manchester or in any place in the UK. The best surgeon might be sitting in Paris, then he can have the operation. It might be due to a pandemic, it might be due to other chronic problems. Any other reasons? Technology is supporting you borderless, which means you don't need a hospital to have these operations anymore. That's why home health care is booming tremendously. As you are for example lobbying NHS in UK, you are waiting for months and months for a kind of simple operation backlog. UK is a very rich country. However, resources are limited, still. I mean even you might have the money, even COVID 19 you might have millions in your bank account, but you don't have the access for healthcare. You are stuck in your home, for example. That's why there's a new era we are entering. That's why technology will be enabler. But we should be understanding how these technologies serving you. It's important and very important one also. Robots are not replacing human beings. They can only replace repetitive things. But as a human being, compassion, love, care, humanity, being a human, virtues, values are still valid. And none of the computers or AI is going to be replacing your eye contact, your feelings, your emotions. And AIs are trying to mimic these kinds of feelings, but they are copies, they are not the real feelings. That's why there's a thin line in between, Daniel.

Daniel Emmerson 21:19

A very thin line. Especially when looking at what some of the technological capability looks and feels like already. Right. When it comes to creating copied content or videos of. I'm thinking in a classroom context, historical individuals who might be able to talk to a class of 12 year olds about an aspect of their curriculum and it feels like a real interaction, but it's not. And I'm really interested Esen in this, this idea of trust when it comes to offloading tasks and activities and professional engagement to a machine that would have otherwise been conducted by a person. Particularly when it's something as invasive and high stakes as surgery, but also even lower down than that. Right. When it comes to issuing a prescription, for example, having an interaction with a human who can look you in the eye and talk to you about how you're feeling and your responses and everything else. There's a difference, it feels different. Right. When you're engaging with an AI, for example, as a human.

Esen Tümer 22:37

Exactly. I think as you know, the answer of this question is we are very familiar with IQ, your mathematical intelligence and you have got EQ emotional intelligence. However, there are two more intelligence parameters like SQ, spiritual intelligence, PQ, physical intelligence, robots and AI are going to be replacing IQ and PQ, Physical intelligence, mathematical ones, algorithms, repetitive actions, you can train them. But EQ, emotional intelligence, SQ spiritual intelligence are not going to be replaced by AI at all. It makes us human beings. But what is the threat? Before I was going to Harvard, I studied a book. It was a kind of lesson book. In that book it was saying Human Being 3.0. It was the book's name. It says there was microorganisms before human beings came and they were happy and hey. It says hey, human beings. How can you say you are better than silicone based AI and you are carbon based human being. When you came, microorganisms were disappointed. Today you are claiming you are the best as a carbon base but you don't know baby silicon bases better. It is a perception how they are. It's very important to teach the students. I think the teacher is major role at school showing AI is a technology serving for humanity and not humans are serving for technology. It's so thin line again. So this one to create consciousness means human beings is, as human beings, it's a kind of, you might consider there's a big forest and the forest we are just kind of small tree. Yes. Is the forest for tree or tree for the forest? That analogy you will understand. Of course they never all trees all kind of nature they are connected is a forest, it becomes life. Individual, one tree, one small flower doesn't make the whole equation in the whole forest. That's why technology individually means nothing unless we are going to be in the harmony in our lives using, utilizing, ensuring that we are going to be able to use in a very nice way. In harmony we are going to have the because intelligence is vital. Life is intelligent already; it might be artificial or natural intelligence. Life has intelligence. That's why whenever you are considering your natural intelligence is better than the human, then you are wrong. It's a combination. So always, always being a human being, you cannot know all the algorithms memorized by AI. As a surgeon you can ask to evaluate my 2000 cases in OpenAI for example, ChatGPT gives you in 5 seconds as a human being you can't remember at all. But if you ask you what is your school teacher when you are grade one, you will immediately tell me what the name of your teacher was when you were a small kid, right? It comes no one second but the computer needs to calculate. Human beings, whenever attached with the humans emotions is in your memory strongly and captured if not, it's not there. That's why we should be understanding the what is the benefits and what are the threats for technology? And we should be at the education level and responsible for the teachers. They should be quite aware and showing the pathway for technology for the kids.

Daniel Emmerson 26:41

I think that's a wonderful place for us to wrap up. Thank you so, so very much for being with us. Once again, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you.

Esen Tümer 26:49

It's a pleasure for me, Daniel. It was very nice chat.

Voice Over 26:52

That's it for this episode. Don't forget, the next episode is coming out soon, so make sure you click that option to follow or subscribe. It just means you won't miss it. But in the meantime, thank you for being here and we'll see you next time.

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